When does the PS2 become "retro"?

[DreamcastRIP]

To quote something I said back on page 7,

Seems to me that when some (but not all) people whine that 'PS2 is retro' what they're really saying is that they want everyone else to agree with them so to justify them calling for more coverage of their beloved Sony console in RG magazine. Press some of these people further about whether they'd enjoy seeing some of the other genuinely retro consoles receive some proper coverage more frequently in the magazine and they go silent. Thus revealing their real agenda had naff all to do with improving the balance of RG magazine and everything to do with pandering to their selfish needs.

On the other hand, seems to me that when some (but not all) people whine that "PS2 is not retro" what they're really saying is that they want everyone else to agree with them so to justify them calling for less coverage of their hated Sony console in RG magazine.

Although the thread is just "when does the PS2 become retro?" in all honesty. I think the magazine stuff started with you and the other anti-PS2 is retro side. I could be wrong though. A lot of us are kind of ambivalent on the issue.

*ignores latest in a very long line of deliberately argumentative confrontational flame bait from The Beans*

[The Beans]

I thought the Blaze version of the Megadrive played actual cartridges? And it's supported by Sega because it has the Sega branding all over it.
It looks like an officially licensed version of the Megadrive. Being sold right now. If that's the case, by your own definition why is the Megadrive still retro?
If it just comes down to software support the PS2 becomes retro the minute all the major game publishers pull out. Although we'll need a proper definition of what constitutes homebrew to properly back that up really.

Oh dear . . . How can I put in this in more simple terms you might understand this time:

- It is ENDORSED and LICENSED from Sega not SUPPORTED by them, totally different things.
- It DOES NOT use REAL Mega Drive hardware, it is a clone using emulation and won't play every game, cart slot or not.
- NOBODY actively supports it as a platform or releases NEW GAMES for it.

The PS2 however is still sold and produced by Sony themselves, still supported by licensed 3rd parties with new games and is also only from the last generation (same as the DS and PSP, are they retro now too?)

We don't need a proper defination of home brew at all, the present one is fine. A game made in small numbers for the community, produced by people as a "hobby" for a platform that is usually no longer supported commercially by its manufacturer and not officially licensed.

It's a Megadrive variant. As you say, it's officially endorsed. It's sold commercially. It's in the stores. It's actually part of this generation of machines. An amazing thing to realise but it's true nonetheless.

I don't think the DS is retro tbh. Or the PS2 really. Or the PS1 if I'm honest. But that's just my opinion. But since you're stating your opinion as a fact for everybody I think we should nail it down to real facts that can be absolutely defined.

Let's start with your belief that licensing out a product doesn't constitute support. Usually a license is granted because the company supports the product, it's their good name on the line after all. Let's start there shall we? Explain your reasoning please. For us all.

[The Beans]

*ignores latest in a growing series of being confronted by an accurate truth from The Beans that is difficult to counter without looking like a complete hypocrite*

Fixed.

[DreamcastRIP]

*ignores latest in a growing series of being confronted by an accurate truth from The Beans that is difficult to counter without looking like a complete hypocrite*

Fixed.

*continues to ignore latest in a very long line of deliberately argumentative confrontational flame bait from The Beans*

[The Beans]

DreamcastRIP, for deliberately argumentative flamebait there's no finer example than this:

Seems to me that when some (but not all) people whine that 'PS2 is retro' what they're really saying is that they want everyone else to agree with them so to justify them calling for more coverage of their beloved Sony console in RG magazine. Press some of these people further about whether they'd enjoy seeing some of the other genuinely retro consoles receive some proper coverage more frequently in the magazine and they go silent. Thus revealing their real agenda had naff all to do with improving the balance of RG magazine and everything to do with pandering to their selfish needs.

Take a look at it. You wrote it. You just don't like being on the recieving end of the same sort of stuff. Funny that.

[DreamcastRIP]

DreamcastRIP, for deliberately argumentative flamebait there's no finer example than this:

Seems to me that when some (but not all) people whine that 'PS2 is retro' what they're really saying is that they want everyone else to agree with them so to justify them calling for more coverage of their beloved Sony console in RG magazine. Press some of these people further about whether they'd enjoy seeing some of the other genuinely retro consoles receive some proper coverage more frequently in the magazine and they go silent. Thus revealing their real agenda had naff all to do with improving the balance of RG magazine and everything to do with pandering to their selfish needs.

Take a look at it. You wrote it. You just don't like being on the recieving end of the same sort of stuff. Funny that.

*continues to ignore latest in a very long line of deliberately argumentative confrontational flame bait from The Beans*

[The Laird]

It's a Megadrive variant. As you say, it's officially endorsed. It's sold commercially. It's in the stores. It's actually part of this generation of machines. An amazing thing to realise but it's true nonetheless.

For a 3rd and final time. Sega don't produce it, it dosn't use real hardware, it dosn't even play all Mega Drive games and it is certainly not supported by ANY software companies. That's your truth. It's not a "variant" at all, it's a MOAC clone using emulation. The Nomad is a variant, the X'eye is a variant, the Wondermega is a variant, this is not its a CLONE. To be a variant it would need to be using real hardware, not emulation. In your logic my Dingoo is a Mega Drive variant

I don't think the DS is retro tbh. Or the PS2 really. Or the PS1 if I'm honest. But that's just my opinion. But since you're stating your opinion as a fact for everybody I think we should nail it down to real facts that can be absolutely defined..

Oh yes, that's right it's opinion and not fact that the PS2 is still being sold and that new games are coming out for it (my argument since page 1 by the way). Good grief

Let's start with your belief that licensing out a product doesn't constitute support. Usually a license is granted because the company supports the product, it's their good name on the line after all. Let's start there shall we? Explain your reasoning please. For us all.

Explain what? That somebody licensing a name is completely different to somebody making it themselves or even licensing the hardware (the JVC Wondermega for example or the Sears Telegames). Sega licenced their own name and the Mega Drive name and a bunch of ROMS.

[Antiriad2097]

If we were to accept that the Mega Drive is still a currently available system in its emulated guise via the various DTV and handheld systems, does that also mean the PS1 is a current system since PS2 and PS3 are backwards compatible, as are GC and XBox via Wii and 360?

[ShadowNeku]

Snes isnt retro because you can purchase games for it via Wii virtual console

[The Beans]

If we were to accept that the Mega Drive is still a currently available system in its emulated guise via the various DTV and handheld systems, does that also mean the PS1 is a current system since PS2 and PS3 are backwards compatible, as are GC and XBox via Wii and 360?

I don't know. Me, I wouldn't say they were current. Other people might. You can interpret anything you want in gaming any way you want. There's a lot of grey area out there. Overlapping generations and software support that continues long after a platform has been officially discontinued makes for a fairly shambolic gaming chronology, especially after the subjective nature of it all is factored in.
Jagfest's last post is good stuff IMO. Seeing some things clearly laid out etc. Good post. But here's the rub, despite what Jagfest says, to me the Blaze thing is just a Megadrive. I only know it uses emulation because Jagfest has told me (I'm assuming what he says is true). In truth it doesn't make any difference overall. The device plays Megadrive games, it's marketed as a Megadrive and it has Sega's name on it and that's it. Many other people will think exactly the same way.
The point is that whatever rules you want to come up with, whatever clear boundaries you think you can make on this issue there's going to be a grey area. It's always going to come down to what a person chooses to believe or the angle they view the whole thing from.
It's a really pointless debate. It actually ended when whoever it was said it was down to the indiviual to decide. Everything after that has just been one side wanting to project their view onto the other.

[Liamh1982]

^ I've got one - it IS emulation, and not very good at that.
Virtua Racing doesn't work at all, the plug-through feature on Sonic & Knuckles is implemented - BADLY.
Sound is woeful, picture output is crap - just avoid. Get a proper MD, or if you are going to emulate there are so many better avenues.

[AmigaJay]

Antiques aren't antique because I can go and buy them in an antiques shop doh.... Utter pish logic...

[GameOverYeah]

On the subject of someone claiming that people believe the PS2 is retro "just because they can get their beloved console into RG". That honestly couldn't be further from the truth, if I'm a fanboy to any company it would be Sega, in particular Mega Drive and Dreamcast and I openly admit that I would love more coverage of those consoles in RG for that very reason.

I do feel that once you move onto the next generation then the previous generation automatically becomes retro. It doesn't matter how long has past, it simply means that there will be a young group of people who grew up or their first console was the PS2. So for them it will be retro (old or nostalgic) even though most of these people have no interest in retro gaming. It doesn't even have to be your first console its just that era of gaming. It may not have moved on that much but if you go back and look at PS2 games some do look dated and shows that we have moved on alot. But that is my view on it.

What annoys me about RG magazine is its complete bias towards 8 bit computers, even after 100 issues it still remains 80 - 70% of the magazines coverage. Now I know there are alot of people who love this and that was their original audience but it just seems to me since they started adding more 16 bit content they were berated by angry letters and they have gone back to almost completely 8 bit again. It fine if you are into that era and I don't want it removed I just want a fair balance over the whole of gaming not just one era. Not even in one magazine, sure they could have one magazine focusing on 8 bit, but just make the next 16 bit or one particular theme or something. I know they cannot please everyone it just feels they are afraid to displease the vocal 8 bit crowd. That is the problem.

Now don't get me wrong I enjoy reading about some of these spectrum and C64 games as I know little to nothing about them. But as a gamer who grew up with 16 bit machines (Amiga, Mega Drive and Snes) I would like to see more coverage these games. They've had 100 issues to write about predominately 8 bit games and I feel they must be repeating old ground now just to keep happy a vocal minority who feel retro gaming is all about them and 8 bit era only. What I am saying is I would happily see any console from 16 bit all the way to PS2 era get coverage than yet another 14 page article on a spectrum game that has been covered many times already. Just my opinion!

[Antiriad2097]

The antique world went through something of a revisionist period of classification in recent decades too.

Prior to this, it was generally taken that to be a 'genuine' antique something would be 100 years old or more. Things moved slowly so this made sense.

In the 20th century the rapid changes in technology and society have greatly narrowed the periods of change from one era to the next, so now things from our recent past can also be considered antique.

As for the 'too much 8 bit coverage' argument, its been done to death. There's loads of 16 bit and later coverage. You say there's too much 8 bit, I say there's not enough. Be happy with what you've got, don't expect every article to appeal.

[deadpan666]

As I've said before, recently Retrogamer have the balance about perfect in my opinion.....they still have articles about the 8-bits, but also stuff about Hogs Of War and in the next issue, Tekken....

It's never going to be a mag that pleases everyone...Retro is too undefinable by a set of rules for that! But right now, it's pleasing me, so I'm happy!