Is piracy wrong?

[SirClive]

I still want to know why people think they have a right to have anything at all that they feel like having.

[CraigGrannell]

The laws are decided democratically.

Not in the UK, they're not, or at least they are very, very rarely. Effectively, we install by somewhat democratic means a near-dictatorial set-up, where they then create laws with little input from the population. Sometimes this follows public opinion, but often it really doesn't.

Pardon my ignorance on this issue but how then can people get away with manufacturing equipment that allows you to do everything that's been mentioned previously?

Video recorders and PVRs get away with it because some broadcasts are considered public domain and are therefore legal to record. This is similar to iPods being legal because there are legal uses (iTunes/uploading songs you have the rights to copy), even if most users are technically using them in an illegal fashion. Or: I buy a knife, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stab someone with it.

I still want to know why people think they have a right to have anything at all that they feel like having.

Some people always feel like that. In my work as a designer, this is problematic sometimes, because people think that as they're not getting a material object, they should somehow pay me nothing or very little. The problem, for me, is that media companies are pushing very hard in the other direction. I'm certain that if they stopped taking the p*ss out of legitimate consumers that 1) they'd get more respect, and; 2) they'd get more income. So, no more:

- Trailers at the start of commercial DVDs (as extras, fine, but not at the start);
- DRM-encoded music;
- Condescending and patronising piracy adverts at the start of films at the flicks;
- Misleading advertising comparing piracy to theft;
- Avoiding the introduction of basic fair-use laws.
- Making owners of legitimately bought games jump through hoops to get the sodding thing working, despite cracked versions working right away.

Yeah, I know—fat chance.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

I still want to know why people think they have a right to have anything at all that they feel like having.

They don't feel that they have a "right" to it. They feel that it's possible for them to have it, and that it's not hurting anyone, so why not?

[EvilArmourKing]

So tell me Dudley :

Have you EVER done anything piracy related as stipulated in your post??

Copied something off the TV onto a VHS tape?

Copied a game? Or at least own a copied game??

Or anything else that would be considered illegal?

I look forward to your HONEST answer

[Dudley]

Pardon my ignorance on this issue but how then can people get away with manufacturing equipment that allows you to do everything that's been mentioned previously?, surely somebody somewhere is turning a blind eye then.

Oh they do turn a blind eye. The BPI for instance has specifically said they would never sue someone for mp3ing a CD (which they would have to do, it's a civil matter not a criminal one, don't confuse something being illegal with it being a crime).

But if you're using the law as your one true guide, which several people have suggested is the only real metric in this thread, then you still can't do those things.

The thing is why do they market a CD/DVD burner? why market a VHS recorder and not a player?

Officially?

For backing up your own data and your home movies respectively.

How do sky get round the recording issue with sky+ ?

They're the broadcaster and thus the copyright holder of that transmission. If they allow it, it's not illegal anymore. That said, they DO stop you recording certain programs on Sky+ I believe and limit the amount of time you can keep them (someone with sky correct me on this)

All these "It's illegal" ones have the fairly obvious unspoken suffix "without permission".

I still want to know why people think they have a right to have anything at all that they feel like having.

Simply they feel that an action which hurts no-one is an action no-one should be against.

You could use that against any law. Why do black people think they have a right to sit at the front of a bus. Why do I have the right to 1 day off a week? Why do I have the right to have kids? Why do I have the right to do just about anything that was illegal at one stage or another?

So tell me Dudley :

Have you EVER done anything piracy related as stipulated in your post??

Copied something off the TV onto a VHS tape?

Copied a game? Or at least own a copied game??

Or anything else that would be considered illegal?

I look forward to your HONEST answer

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

You're asking the wrong person, either of the Sir Clives or will would be a better bet. I think it's pretty clear from my posts that I have.

However, in the last month I've bought 3 CDs, 3 DVDs, Full Auto on 360 ,Command and Conquer 3 on PC and Paperboy, Boom Boom Rocket and Jetpac on XBLA. Any piracy I may or may not do is almost certainly not adversely affecting my purchases.

Hell, read the thread, there's a point where piracy would have INCREASED my legal media spend if only the 2 CDs in question didn't have lovely Sony butchered copy protection on them.

[SirClive]

I would answer yes to them all too. I haven't said that piracy is a blanket bad. Piracy for profit to me is wrong. Buying pirate stuff is wrong (even if you are poor). Thats about it for me.

I just don't think we should all be so smug about not doing anything wrong when loads of us DO download stuff that they may have bought.

[will2097]

Not in the UK, they're not, or at least they are very, very rarely. Effectively, we install by somewhat democratic means a near-dictatorial set-up, where they then create laws with little input from the population. Sometimes this follows public opinion, but often it really doesn't.

...you make it sound like conspiracy - when in honesty it's apathy. The mechanisms are there - people can't be arsed/haven't got time to use them. Then they are upset when others do.

[will2097]

my stuffquote]

Life's a lot easier when you let other people do all the thinking for you, isn't it?

Just one thing, though:

The laws are decided democratically.

That made me laugh so hard I very nearly shat myself. You should be on the stage.

Oh yeah, that's a great idea - I should shouldn't I? Go on stage - I could create an angry character that thinks he's a priest. And play the last of the great angry free-thinking liberals. Life didn't pan out for him - so he blames the system

And what do you mean, let others do the thinking? I wasn't aware anyone else was thinking.

[Utini]

Piracy is wrong....

The point being. Whether you agree with a law or not is irrelevant. Breaking the law is wrong. The laws are decided democratically.

You own a Porsche, don't you Will? A very nice car, I should imagine. And powerful. What does it do, 0-60 in 5 seconds or thereabouts? Top speed of 150+?

Ever broken the speed limit in that car, Will? Ever been on an empty stretch of motorway and thought to yourself, "It's safe enough, I'll just gun the engine"? No?

How about inadvertantly? Ever crossed from a 40 into a 30 doing 32 mph over the line? Ever been driving around built up areas convinced you're in a 40, but when in all actuality your in a 30?

If you can answer yes to any of those questions, then you've broken the law. Which is *wrong*.

Given this, presumably you'd have no problem with the Government installing equipment in your car that would detect whenever you exceed the speed limit and which automatically fines you £500? And if, say, you exceed the speed limit more than six times in a six week period, presumably you'd have no objection to an armed police squad kicking in your front door at 4am to haul you off to prison for 12 months?

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

Oh, Will's already admitted he's a criminal and a hypocrite. And the funny thing is, by his own argument that makes him far worse than the rest of us. The rest of us who aren't dribbling cretins actually have conflicted views on the morality of the situation, and are acting in accordance with our respective consciences. But Will knows absolutely, 100%, black-and-white, no doubt, no grey, no room for interpretation or debate, that what he's doing is wrong. But he does it anyway.

What a truly repellent little weasel.

[CraigGrannell]

The mechanisms are there

Really? In what sense. In the US, there are mechanisms that force debate and votes if enough people petition. In the UK, 30 million people could sign something against ID cards (for example), and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, because politicians are not directly accountable to their constituencies in any meaningful sense. Also, with our first-past-the-post system, I'd say that the UK's voting system is barely better than borderline democratic.

[sirclive1]

Just on the sky+ , you can record and seemingly keep anything (thats not box office ) for any length of time (so it says in the handbook) , but you cannot record any sky premier plus matches (if you have bought the season ticket - which i have) , you can record them if you have not got a season ticket , but when you press start to watch the match you have recorded it will add the fee to your account.

In regards to the 3 questions

yes i have taped from tv to vhs (motd)

yes i have owned a copied game (1980's)

yes i have done something illegal (and paid the price)

[CrookedMouth]

I saw the quote about democracy and laws, and just wanted to point out that at least in the US democracy is a farce, show me proof that it isn't and not only would I thank you but I'd be the first to admit I'm an idiot.
I've broken many laws in my life but no one considers me a criminal and they would be hugely naive to do so.I am actually a good guy(no really I am!).

[Dudley]

In terms of democracy...

Which party got the most English votes in the 2005 UK General Election?

Which party holds the most English parliamentary seats from that election?

I wonder who can tell me both answers without looking it up.

[CraigGrannell]

At a guess, I'd say [spoiler]that the Tories got the most votes in England alone—after all, the map was mostly blue—but Labour (obviously) has the most seats. Certainly, the Lib Dems also got f——ed over, with nearly a quarter of the popular vote, but only nine per cent of the seats. That's democracy for you[/spoiler].